“Retirement means the lack of engagement; it is total disengagement,” the 40-something woman declared on the phone. As if that wasn’t off-putting enough, she continued, “People in your world should realize that once you retire, you’re no longer vital.”
What? I would have laughed out loud if I hadn’t sensed during the first 20 minutes of our conversation that she was leading up to something. And here that “something” was.
We’d discovered each other through social media, and the purpose of our conversation was to see if there were any collaborative opportunities between a new venture she just started and Roxanne’s and my Retirement Voices initiative.
I’d briefly told her about our blog and book-to-be, and how we’re creating a community to help women navigate the social and emotional aspects of retirement. I mentioned that I’d retired three years ago, and how that transition was the catalyst for these efforts. So it wasn’t as if she didn’t know who I was and what I was doing when she offered her judgment that I and other retirees are “no longer vital.”
After my brief introduction, she had treated me to a lengthy monologue about her new business venture. She stressed that she “optimizes for impact” and “I only build out my platform with concepts that resonate or provide virtual experience”—corporate-speak that she no doubt acquired when earning her MBA from Harvard (something she mentioned so many times that I started making hashmarks in the margin of my notes; I got up to six).
And then she wrapped it all up with her disdainful comments.
Why so judge-y about retirement?
This conversation happened a couple of weeks ago, but it still sticks in my craw. Not so much her overselling or need to impress, but her view of retirement and retirees. I’ve been mulling it over—with a less-intense emotional response—trying to figure out why she said what she did. Ignorance? Self-absorption? Ageism? Fear? Envy? And her reference to “people in your world”—don’t we both live in the same world? She apparently doesn’t think so.
I’m keenly aware that each of us views the word “retirement” through different filters. In fact, I blogged about this topic last May [here], and how our unique beliefs, values and experiences about retirement can cause us to embrace the term joyfully or vow to never use the word.
These differences are valid and should be honored. It’s an individual decision whether we want to apply the term “retired” to ourselves (or not). But this (relatively) young woman’s words were so judgmental and dismissive of people at this post-work stage of life. She maligned all of us who are retired, calling us disengaged and not vital.
Understanding where she’s coming from
I won’t ever know for sure the rationale (or emotion) that lay behind this woman’s remarks, but I’ve found myself conjecturing a variety of possible reasons:
- She’s in her peak career-building years and feeling powerful, invincible and purposeful—and can’t fathom walking away from that. (I remember that at-the-top-of-your-game euphoria.)
- She hasn’t yet reached the tired and burned-out-from-working-decades-of-long-hours stage where retirement is viewed as a respite and an opportunity to explore different aspects of yourself.
- Her financial picture is dire—maybe she’s still paying off her Harvard MBA, has adult children living with her, is concerned about supporting her aging parents, or doesn’t have a pension and isn’t able to save enough to even begin thinking about a time when she could reduce her income.
- She’s envious of those who can afford to retire.
- She has older relatives who retired and spent their “golden years” living a life of leisure in a retirement community, with no apparent purpose or direction (in her eyes), and she knows this isn’t how she wants to spend her post-career years.
- She has no friends or family who are retired and living purposeful, fulfilling lives—no role models.
- Her perceptions are rooted in ageism (unconscious or deliberate). For some reason, she has a negative attitude toward older people, old age and the aging process, hence retirees.
- She’s scared and afraid of getting older—and doesn’t want to be thought of in the same way that she thinks about older people.
No matter the reasons for her comments and how she chose to express them, my shock and anger have subsided, replaced with a vague sadness. Sadness for her and her limited perspective, sadness for us older retired folks who continue to be underestimated or, worse, dismissed, and sadness that has nothing to do with her comments directly but is a response to one more example of how divided (and divisive) our world has become.
How I responded
You’re probably wondering how I responded to her. I held my own, but it was truly one of those conversations for which you create clever retorts two days later and wish for a do-over.
In the moment, I chose not to engage and debate with her—I was both a little too stunned by her vehemence—if not arrogance—and could also sense the rigidity of her position. I did say that I disagreed strongly with her take on retirement and that hers wasn’t the only definition of engagement and vitality. I told her that, based on my experience, millions of retired people would find her words offensive and that she was two decades away from understanding what life post-career was truly like. I said that I felt our views were so different that there was nothing more for us to discuss. And I quickly ended the conversation.
But it does still bother me—not the conversation itself so much as her entrenched position. If I had the do-over, I would work on opening her mind—to the idea that each of us has the right to design our own retirement and not be judged. To see that engagement and vitality are personal and defined by what is meaningful to us, not by an outsider.
Now that I’ve vented, I can let the conversation go. I may never understand her, and I won’t deliberately cross paths with her again. But I do have a positive wish for her—that as she ages, she will soften and gain wisdom, tolerance and acceptance of others. And that she will be accepted and honored for exactly who she is in her older years.
What’s your take on this conversation? Please share.
My life since retirement is so fulfilling, it is hard to understand where she was coming from. I have traveled extensively, had time to deepen my spirituality and nurture friendships and connections with family members close and far away. Also had time for self development to figure out what is really important in living a good life.
I’m with you, Nuala – hard to understand where she was coming from. It’s terrific to hear that your retirement is fulfilling. I would say you’re a great example of how we can be “vital” in our post-work lives! Thanks for commenting.
You said it, “she had treated me to a lengthy monologue about her new business venture.” The very fact that she couldn’t acknowledge that you are creating a platform for women in or anticipating retirement speaks to her egocentricity.
I’m sorry to say that I used to judge the retired relatives in my life, scoffing at their slow mornings and the time on their hands to complete tasks and socialize. I like to think that I have evolved enough now to recognize the life stages and the gift of wisdom that time on this earth offers.
You were gracious in your wishes for her.
Thanks for your honesty, Mona, about judging your retired relatives in the past. I know I was guilty of that too – because I hadn’t lived long enough and experienced enough to truly understand. Glad we both have evolved and become wiser, and here’s hoping others in their 40s will evolve too. Thanks for sharing.
I was judgy too when younger. Thankfully I have improved with age. Thanks for sharing this Mona.
Leslie, she was rude and you gave a lot of good speculations. Add the possibility of increased taxes on her to support our social security. I know that irked me a lot in my younger days and may be fresh in her mind if her household income tops 400k with that harvard degree.
You made me smile with your margin tally on her Harvard name dropping!
It was just so frequent – I had to count it! Glad that made you smile.
Hmmm. You gave me another possible explanation to think about. Thanks, Sue.
I do think that retirement has taught me about tolerance and acceptance! Finding self-acceptance, and realization that “retirement” can be very different lifestyles to different people. I think I am more “vital” now that I’ve ever been. Maybe I’m don’t have a platform I work to optimize for impact (which means exactly what anyway?!), but I do believe I am living a life full of positivity and vitality. And I’d rather engage with people “in my world” of retirement than most folks still dealing with the stress of the corporate, business building world. I’m impressed you didn’t lash out at her and yeah, I get the second day wish-I-would-have said moment!
Thanks for joining in on this, Pat. Like you, so many of us retirees are living a life full of vitality. And it irks me that others think they can judge from the outside whether someone else’s life is fulfilling. Amen to leaving “the corporate, business building world” (and many of those folks) behind!
My Husby’s career was forged during the ‘GoldenAge’ of Museum-building here in Alberta, Canada. He served as a project manager for 19 world-class museums in that time. Crafted most of the Alberta Culture Master Policy and procedures and worked closely with heads of government and state during his 44 years with the Alberta Government. His last ten years were a nightmare of being sidelined by the ‘new and upcoming’ people in his department. Being treated like a doddering old fool by his co-workers, even as they continued to implement and function within the policies he had written. I probably don’t have to say it was a difficult time for him. I felt sorry for those co-workers who could have benefitted from his expertise. On the other side of the coin, retirement is glorious and we wonder how he ever had time to go to work!
You give us a good example, Diane, of the ageist attitudes too common among “the new and upcoming people.” It is unfortunate and sad that some people cannot recognize the skill, wisdom and experience of the generation(s) who came before. So glad that there is another side to your story and that you find retirement glorious! Thanks for sharing.
So here’s the bottom line for me: she doesn’t sound very nice or like anyone I would want to collaborate with.
It’s my bottom line too. Thanks for summing it up so succinctly, Carol.
I agree with you, Carol. Let’s hope her ageist views and attitudes diminish with age.
Yes, hopefully age softens. Nice to “see” you here, Bonnie.
I was recently told “You are living the life of luxury”. Huh? Yes, it stung. Yes it made me angry. No, I am not “over it”. How dare she is where I am still. Having worked so many hours in the operating room to equate to full time age 67 and retiring at 58? Yes, 9 full time years extra worked and for my final 27y were salaried so no OT pay). That doesn’t and will never happen in her bank-teller job. I did ask if this is how she feels about all her older retired family members? (Parents, aunts/uncles, grandparents but of course, she didn’t respond to that.)
I don’t recall ever looking down on retired people in my life. I knew they worked their behinds off to get there and I was highly motivated to do the same. It is a fascinating and sad change, to me, this generation X ideology.
I do thoroughly enjoy my low-demand lifestyle and have decided I will let my license and certification expire. No return for me. It has taken some time to be at peace with this as I thought I would do volunteer mission work. I’ve decided I’ve given enough and don’t need the stress of occasional patient care.
So, I’ll stick with my “life of luxury” and perhaps the sting will diminish over time.
So sorry you experienced this too, Elle. It does take a while to shake it off sometimes, no matter whether it comes from ignorance or some calculated intent. None of us like to be dismissed! Perhaps your best revenge is focusing on the low-demand lifestyle you enjoy (and earned!) Thanks for sharing your story.
Elitism is a disease without filters or boundaries. It can affect any person at any age and exhibit cruelty, dismissiveness or rancor in many forms. Its base is most often immaturity at any age and a total disrespect of others. People suffering from elitism are to be pitied for their small world view.
Elitism is rampant among people who have experienced recognizable brands and can only function within them. Those of us with mature world views must tolerate these immature folk only after reminding them that performance tops pedigree every day, by every person at any age.
Thank you, Judy, for your wise words. You’ve given us all something important to digest and think about. Glad you joined us here.
Retirement was one of those things I never “got” until I did it myself. At first I thought she was just ignorant, but as you continued I realized she was not interested in being educated. I’ve longed for many re-dos over the years and sympathize, but honestly she doesn’t seem worth the effort.
Good analysis, Tracey. I think you’re right that she didn’t want to be educated and that’s unfortunate in my view. Thanks for commenting.
I think your comment about having role models is insightful. I’ve had a hard time saying that I am “retired”, because my father worked at the same company for 30 years and when he retired he didn’t do anything with his time. No learning, teaching, community involvement, traveling, learning new skills, etc. As a result, for me “retirement” meant giving up. I now have so many role models who are doing amazing things in retirement, and have a better perspective on how different retirement can look for each person. I’m making progress — I now call myself “semi-retired”!
You give us a great real-life example, Kathy, of how important role models can be. So glad to hear that you have many other models and your perspective has broadened. Looking forward to when you join us “fully retired” (and vital) folks!
I have a couple of observations to share alongside others comments
In the TV series Halt and Catch Fire , the main characters are young computer geeks In the 1980s feverishly working on the personal computer. They are all young and ambitious, dreaming of creating a better and different world. There is one character, Bosley, male, late 50s or older, who fills in their business and world experience gaps. They are so enamored with their own set of skills, they can’t see what they don’t know. They don’t really understand the value his years of business acumen adds to their being successful. He’s old school.
And so it is with your 40 yr old who wants to believe she is savvy and trending. If you aren’t living in the fast lane, you are on the exit ramp. And definitely not vital. Cultural perhaps?
I know women who lament their adult kids won’t take their advice They prefer to get multiple options or opinions from the internet or chat groups
They feel Mom’s advice is outdated.
So, it’s all about them !!
I’d also like to add my experience when I told peers I was retiring (at 65). Most urged me to not use the word “retire” as it is an old fashioned word signifying not being vital. They were amplifying what you discovered, Leslie.
RETIREMENT VOICES and the conversations among women is an important piece of changing thIs long held paradigm.
Thanks for sharing your observations, Teri. We all have too many examples of one generation not appreciating and understanding the wisdom and value of the previous generation. Perhaps it is cultural; we certainly know of other cultures who value their elders. Thanks for your comments, your support and being part of this community.
I come from a family whose members tend to retire and then work part time, sometimes into their 80’s, and I may be following in their footsteps. One retired cousin, an electrical engineer, works at Home Depot part time and loves it. Another, a retired 1st grade teacher, does infant massage. I retired in April at age 67 on a Friday, and then reported to work as a part-timer on Monday. So I was stunned when I wrote an email during a light hearted exchange with co workers (we are all working from home) where I referred to myself as “retired” and a co worker shot back “you aren’t retired; you are working part time.” Wait, what? Can’t I be both? I hope the woman you blogged about will soften and change with time – life tends to do that to many of us. But don’t blame you at all for ending the conversation. I also hope it doesn’t come because of something tragic happening in her life. I also suspect, as you suspect, that she has no good role models for retirement. I sought out role models for retirement in my last few years working. Over and over I heard the same thing “I’m so busy now, I don’t know how I ever found the time to work!” She’ll learn. Maybe.
Yes, part-time work is often a part of retirement these days – whether for income,something to do, socialization or other reasons. And working part-time or not, if you consider yourself retired, whose to say you’re not? Seeking out role models before we retire is a smart way to prepare ourselves and see the possibilities. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Alana.
Before I left the world of international development I had women as young or younger than this judgemental one. One day working with Maria and wanting to do something lower tech than she suggested, she condescendingly said to me, “Well, you know, Bethann, this is the way of the future?” I boiled at her condescension and kept quiet. A few days later I called her into my office and gently informed her that she would never talk to me that way again. Not only was I doing this work before she was born but had also been traveling with her to teach her the skills of interpersonal interaction with country office teams. I then said to her that we had much to learn from each other. Rather than condescension, I could learn from her tech savvy and she could learn from my years of experience. It proved to be a valuable conversation and it never happened again. Nonetheless, I am quite sure that Maria and her colleagues suffer from ageism. As for me, living back in Ecuador, I continue my work with women without the pressure of working in 90+ counties and could not be happier!
Unfortunately, Roxanne and I keep hearing how pervasive this ageist attitude is. And you share additional testimony, Bethann. Good for you in standing up and confronting it directly. Hopefully that had some impact. Thanks for joining this community and commenting.
Great piece Leslie, one that seems to have resonated with so many of us. Count me in as well — I’ve both experienced this kind of attitude about being retired (although not as bad as this one!) as well as having a somewhat judge-y attitude myself about retirees when I was in my 40’s. So I understand why it happens. As Tracey stated so well, I didn’t really “get” retirement until I decided to do it myself, and it surprised me how many people couldn’t understand why it would be a choice and time of new opportunities — but none of them were retirees! The person you mentioned here was really off the charts of disrespect and arrogance and I give you high marks for your handling! As I see it, whether we replace the word retirement or not, I hope our generation can change the old stereotype of retirement — and aging — by continuing our lives forward, whether working or not, by contributing and leading fulfilling lives in the ways we choose so that this kind of dismissive attitude is a thing of the past. Thank you for what you do here and the work of gathering us and adding our voices!
Thanks, Judith. Like you, my wish is that our generation, through living by example, will begin to change the old stereotypes. If we can be the role models for contributing – and being productive and vital – in our post-work years, I can’t help but think that the generations behind us will notice. We appreciate your comments and support.
Bravo to you and Roxanne and your work here to open a window to view what retirement is now! Thank you!
You did well to hold your own and not say exactly what you were probably thinking! I was made redundant against my wishes at age 56 and so wasn’t planning for it to happen quite so soon. Nearly 4 years later I am in a better headspace about it all and rarely get judge-y comments. I simply can’t relate to that person’s views and feel sorry for her in a way, for her lack of empathy mainly. She too, will retire one day!
Sorry to hear about your “redundancy”, Debbie, but glad to know you’re ok with it now. Yes, you’d think that someone would think about their own future before they’d malign others who preceded them. Thanks for commenting.
I talk to many retirees who feel they have ‘optimized impact’ in their own lives more now than when they were pursuing their careers.
Good one, Alexa. Love your observation (and agree.) Plus, you remind us that tapping in to our sense of humor is a good way to deal with these situations. Thanks for commenting.